Follow-ups
I think that one of the most important issues that need some work is to do more to get follow-ups when people get a solution. A relevant rating from the requestor indicating a good answer would help but in my opinion the most important thing is to get some kind of feedback indicating that I have helped. Based on the feedback I get I am not helping much. Yes, I do sometimes get feedback indicating I have helped but not often. The implication is that I am wasting my time and everyone else's time, but I notice there are few discussions with ratings. And as I said, it is not the rating that is important as much as getting an indication that my time is worthwhile. And an indication of a useful answer could help to identify answers that could be used for future reference.
I consider this issue to be much more important than the article comments issue. I think that if you were to ask about this topic you would get a flood of comments from the people you should be listening to.
I realize that you are going to ask how to do this.
Well, uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........
Well if you could just find the best location for enhancing existing comments, such as on a "New Post" page, then perhaps it would help to emphasize the importance (responsibility?) that if a good answer is received then it should be indicated what worked. I notice that the email sent notifying us that there has been a reply says something about giving a rating but it does not seem to be enough.
Something that would require much more work would be a method of retreiving a userid's prior posts that did not have a rating from the original poster and asking the question if the person got a good answer to any of them. I think that if a person posts a lot of questions but never indicates that they got a good answer then something is supicisous.
[1875 byte] By [
Sam Hobbs] at [2007-11-17 14:19:11]
# 1 Re: Follow-ups
<JUST AN IDEA :)>
Have you seen Experts Exchange? If so, what do you think of their UI for handling this issue. I have no idea how much it would cost to license their software or even if EW would be interested, but I wanted to see how many people like the way their system is set up. To be quite frank about it, its the site I use when I have a tough question because I know I'll get quality answers.
Anyway, I'll leave this open for people to talk about...
</JUST AN IDEA :)>
Cheers,
Tom Archer
Web Master - dev-archive
# 2 Re: Follow-ups
I will think about how to answer your direct question, but I am familiar with Experts Exchange and I liked it at first. I began racking up points thinking I could use the points to get answers for myself until I suddenly got hit by a fellow user that pointed out that their points are useless for anything except bragging. Unless they have changed their policies, you cannot use points earned from answering questions to ask your own questions.
But the Experts Exchange web site sells points (costing real money) that can be used to get answers, so that means that they are making money from many of the answers that I might provide for free. I really do not like that but I am sure they like it very much. I even received an email from them requesting that I submit my resume, since we are both in California. They say they are really growing.
The first time I found the Experts Exchange web site was when I needed help with a Windows Hook project I was working on. I posted the same question to the dev-archive web site as I did on the Experts Exchange web site and got no response from my dev-archive post but did get a good answer from the Experts Exchange web site.
So yes it can be a very useful web site. I now have enough free points I can use to get answers if I want to use them. I think that if the dev-archive discussion forums can provide some kind of benefit (other than good ratings) for those of us providing support that things could change drastically in many ways.
To get to the original topic of my discussion, I think that the Experts Exchange system is little or no improvement. Their system depends on trust, at least somewhat. When a good answer is received, there is not really any requirement to acknowledge that the answer worked. There might be a bit more enforcement that there be appropriate follow-ups and the need for that is more obvious but otherwise I do not think that their system is much of an improvement. Except that the additional emphasis on the need for acknowleding good answers I guess is probably important. On the Experts Exchange web site, there is even a little motivation to not acknowledge a good answer, since good answers over there cost more, right?
# 3 Re: Follow-ups
>>>
I began racking up points thinking I could use the points to get answers for myself until I suddenly got hit by a fellow user that pointed out that their points are useless for anything except bragging.
<<<
Yes, but that is precisely what most developers care about. They only want to know that they were able to help the person and the points accomplish that by enabling the question’s author the ability to grade the answer.
>>>
Unless they have changed their policies, you cannot use points earned from answering questions to ask your own questions. But the Experts Exchange web site sells points (costing real money) that can be used to get answers, so that means that they are making money from many of the answers that I might provide for free. I really do not like that but I am sure they like it very much. I even received an email from them requesting that I submit my resume, since we are both in California. They say they are really growing.
<<<
*****We would not be following this***** IOW, there would be NO SELLING of points. I’m just talking about copying or licensing the following ideas:
1) A person asks a questions and values the question at a certain point level
2) “Experts” attempt to answer the question
3) When, and only when, the question’s author is pleased with the answer, a correct answer is selected and that “expert is awarded the points.
This accomplishes two distinct things:
1. As you can tell from ExEx, the “experts” love competing to answer a question. Something you NEVER see in any other forum where anything but the most trivial questions go unanswered.
2. Because of #1, the people posing the questions have a much, much greater chance of getting answers to their questions.
>>>
The first time I found the Experts Exchange web site was when I needed help with a Windows Hook project I was working on. I posted the same question to the dev-archive web site as I did on the Experts Exchange web site and got no response from my dev-archive post but did get a good answer from the Experts Exchange web site.
<<<
Exactly my experience as well!!!
>>>
So yes it can be a very useful web site. I now have enough free points I can use to get answers if I want to use them. I think that if the dev-archive discussion forums can provide some kind of benefit (other than good ratings) for those of us providing support that things could change drastically in many ways.
<<<
I think that we would have a scenario where points would be accumulated by visiting pages (sort of like iWon.com) instead of paying money. That way, EW’s advertisers stay happy and its easy (and ***FREE***) to obtain points to ask questions.
>>>
To get to the original topic of my discussion, I think that the Experts Exchange system is little or no improvement.
<<<
I disagree strongly. However, I would like to also hear from others that have used ExEx (with the understanding that we would only be using the parts I’ve mentioned above).
>>>
Their system depends on trust, at least somewhat. When a good answer is received, there is not really any requirement to acknowledge that the answer worked.
<<<
I disagree here again. It’s not trust at all. ***Only*** the question’s author can decide if the question was answered to his/her satisfaction. Therefore, he/she can test the proposed answer completely before deciding if to accept it as a valid answer and award the points.
Cheers,
Tom Archer
Web Master - dev-archive
# 4 Re: Follow-ups
You say that the question’s author can decide "if to accept it as a valid answer and award the points". But where is the requirement to do that? A person can get a good asnwer and still leave it dangling without any further response. But yes, since it does seem to happen that positive feedback occurs more frequently over there, there is or are something(s) worthwhile about how things are done there.
The point about competition is important. Competition can be healthy but it can be harmful too. I prefer a friendly atmosphere of friends helping frinds, and I hope that the dev-archive web site continues to develop in that direction.
Yes, it will be interesting to see what other comments we get from this discussion. It is my guess that I am not the only one returning to the dev-archive discussion forums after having seen the Experts Exchange web site. If so, then you probably realize that it is beneficial for the dev-archive web site to emphasize the things people are returning for and that the dev-archive web site avoid the things that others leave the other sites for.
# 5 Re: Follow-ups
Thanks for the continued input Sam. This is exactly the sort of thing that is needed to make dev-archive a better site. As one developer mentioned on another thread, everybody and his brother is putting up a code site that is basically nothing more than a code repository. Its time we realized that and started providing other things that can help each other out (such as interactive forums).
>>>
You say that the question’s author can decide "if to accept it as a valid answer and award the points". But where is the requirement to do that? A person can get a good asnwer and still leave it dangling without any further response.
<<<
Actually, this is incorrect.
1) When an answer is proposed it is automatically accepted as correct if the question's author doesn't respond within a certain time period. I think it's something like 4 weeks.
2) When people who pose questions do this, they obviously run the unwanted risk of alienating the very people that are helping them and therefore, take a chance that they won't receive help in the future.
>>>
But yes, since it does seem to happen that positive feedback occurs more frequently over there, there is or are something(s) worthwhile about how things are done there.
<<<
Exactly my point. Their system may not be perfect, but it is BY FAR the very best system that I've seen where a questioner can reasonably expect to post a question and get a decent answer.
>>>
The point about competition is important. Competition can be healthy but it can be harmful too. I prefer a friendly atmosphere of friends helping frinds, and I hope that the dev-archive web site continues to develop in that direction.
<<<
I've actually met quite a number of people that have become friends through the "competition" at ExEx. The reason is that while its fun to "go for the points", we all down deep are helping becuase we like to help others. The points are just a way to have fun and keep score.
>>>
Yes, it will be interesting to see what other comments we get from this discussion. It is my guess that I am not the only one returning to the dev-archive discussion forums after having seen the Experts Exchange web site. If so, then you probably realize that it is beneficial for the dev-archive web site to emphasize the things people are returning for and that the dev-archive web site avoid the things that others leave the other sites for.
<<<
I definitely agree!!! The bottom line is providing a service that works. While we may all disagree on how to do that, I think we all do agree that that is the goal.
Cheers,
Tom Archer
Web Master - dev-archive
# 6 Re: Follow-ups
I think that anonymous users shouldn't be alowed to post, but just to view the posts, also, notify a poster if a post of his has been rated.
--===--
I'm not here for the rates, but rating a post is a good way for me to know how much i helped. Private messages will do also.
--===--
Daniel
# 7 Re: Follow-ups
Perhaps i don't have same experience like you at ExEx (i just signed in a few days ago), but i personally dislike their UI.
Some things i can compare are:
1) dev-archive is far more faster and easy to use than ExEx;
2) Money shouldn't be used here, or the main dev-archive's purpose is kept obsolete;
3) Earning points and make it a sort of credit here is a good idea, but require a carefull implementation. Just suppose i'm 'almost' an Expert and need Experts answers. I have no points to make them, or i'll have to dig and answer simple questions till i have them?! By the time i have sufficient points, i should have the answer already. Duh!
4) I rather prefer private message than comments. These seem to be a way for generating conflits (i think what Sam mentioned).
5) Kept Answers are great, but do posters use them ?! They are so many, and there's not even a way to split them...
6) Thread/Flat Mode is great. Please remember not everybody uses IE neither a fast link.
A few more words, i think these scripts here are great, don't put them to the garbage! Just upgrade!
PS: DanielK pointed out interesting things. Really consider them.
PS2: Anyone interested in getting some ExEx points for free? Still have Refered-By Empty... :)
--
Nuno Tavares
http://nthq.cjb.net
# 8 Re: Follow-ups
Thanks for your input! A few clarifications...
>>>
1) dev-archive is far more faster and easy to use than ExEx;
<<<
I am referring to changing the ***forums*** only. The rest of dev-archive would remain the same as it is today.
>>>
2) Money shouldn't be used here, or the main dev-archive's purpose is kept obsolete;
<<<
I'm not sure I follow you here. How is the "main CodeGUru's purpose kept obsolete" by instituting a way in which a person asking a question can award points to the person he/she feels best answered the question.
>>>
5) Kept Answers are great, but do posters use them ?! They are so many, and there's not even a way to split them...
<<<
Actually, you can split points on ExEx. However, it is a manual process where the questioner request the help of someone at ExEX.
>>>
A few more words, i think these scripts here are great, don't put them to the garbage! Just upgrade!
<<<
Actually, there are no plans to dump anything at the moment. I'm just trying to get a feel for how popular the ExEX system would be in our ***forums*** only.
Cheers,
Tom Archer
Web Master - dev-archive
# 9 Re: Follow-ups
I agree with Sam's point that most posts go without follow-up/feedback in the dev-archive site.
I hate the guiding principles of ExEx (if there are any, besides $$$) and so, would hate to see dev-archive follow that route. However, if the ExEx method guarantees a rating for every likely answer, I have nothing against dev-archive adopting a similar rating mechanism.
Like Sam says, I feel I am wasting my time if I get no feedback from the questioner... but that doesn't mean I will let someone else make money using my expertize for free.
Kailash
# 10 Re: Follow-ups
>>>
I agree with Sam's point that most posts go without follow-up/feedback in the dev-archive site.
<<<
I think we're all in agreement here.
>>>
I hate the guiding principles of ExEx (if there are any, besides $$$) and so, would hate to see dev-archive follow that route.
<<<
I don't know a single person that has ever paid ExEx a penny for their site. I know I've been using their site for over 2 years and have never paid for anything. Meanwhile, I've had at least half a dozen questions answered there that weren't answered in any other forum.
>>>
Like Sam says, I feel I am wasting my time if I get no feedback from the questioner...
<<<
Exactly my point.
>>>
but that doesn't mean I will let someone else make money using my expertize for free.
<<<
As I have said repeatedly, the only reason the idea was even introduced was to make the forums work better for you guys. There will be no purchasing of points with money.
Cheers,
Tom Archer
Web Master - dev-archive
# 11 Re: Follow-ups
Tom Archer has assured us that this web site will not charge for assistance and he is emphatic enough about it that I believe him. He also seems adequately opinionated enough to ensure that we can rely on him.
I wanted to put my comments in to express my opinon that other people reading this discussion need not be concerned about this issue.
# 12 Re: Follow-ups
>>>
Tom Archer has assured us that this web site will not charge for assistance and he is emphatic enough about it that I believe him. He also seems adequately opinionated enough to ensure that we can rely on him.
<<<
LOL! Yeah. I don't have too much of a problem stating an opinion do I, Sam? <g> Well at least the good side is that you never have to worry about me playing games with people. I pretty much say it like it is :)
>>>
I wanted to put my comments in to express my opinon that other people reading this discussion need not be concerned about this issue.
<<<
And it was definitely good that you did. In all honesty I had never even thought about the $ angle with ExEx since I've never paid them anything. However, it is obviously something that others are thinking about and a good thing that you brought it up.
Cheers,
Tom Archer
Web Master - dev-archive
# 13 Re: Follow-ups
I have been having the same thought about the absence of notification of ratings. I might have been getting more ratings lately than I realized. I am not sure if I want a separate email message for each rating but it would be better than what we have now.
Another thing that would help is an easier way to get to our profile. I do not know how to get to my profile showing prior posts and ratings except to find my userid in a post and select it there. The "Edit Profile" does not show the information I am talking about. Perhaps if the place at the top that says "Welcome" with my userid were to also be a hyperlink the same as if it were in a post detail line then it would be much easier to view what is happening for me.
# 14 Re: Follow-ups
Greetings again!
My opinion is also that there should be a way of knowing if the original poster has been answered to his question, and that above all, it had been the right way, so i (just like Sam) assume that when he reads my reply and doesn't comment it, is because it was a right answer. I personally like this voting system. Have you thought about flag'ing replies to the state "Original Poster Hasn't Seen Yet"/"Original Poster Saw And Not Voted" ? That perhaps could lead to a heavier load to the server i/o, but it's an idea.
I'm subscribing also that opinion that there should be a way (very much like "Previous Answers"'s locking mechanism of ExEx) to keep "good" (rated?) articles/threads in a separate listing, and, upon (First Thread's) Post Preview, use a mechanism (similar to Altavista's suggestion system) to compare keywords and suggest potencially already answered posts - instead of compiling them in a FAQ (which is also a good idea, but hard to accomplish).
About emailing replies, just pay attention that sometimes i get html tags among them, and word rapping isn't effective enough (i think it's all due to the [ccode] tag).
Finally, i'd like to apologize Tom Archer for not (officially) replied to his answer, but truth is that i did, but i got a server error (quite common these last days), so, as happens a lot, i assumed it had already been posted. Now that i'm back again to this forum, i don't see it, DUH!
Anyway, my points were already focused by now.
--
Nuno Tavares
http://nthq.cjb.net
# 15 Re: Follow-ups
>>>
Finally, i'd like to apologize Tom Archer
<<<
No need. Glad you're back online :)
You make some very good points. Let's see if some others have anything to add. I will make the remark that we are seriously looking into this issue, therefore, the more feedback the better.
Cheers,
Tom Archer
Web Master - dev-archive
# 16 Re: Follow-ups
I totaly agree with Nuno. I also think there should be something like a "Shopping Cart" which stores links to posts/articles that i found useful. I know that when i see some good post i bookmark it or save it, But this get annoying, and hard to search through
--===--
I'm not here for the rates, but rating a post is a good way for me to know how much i helped. Private messages will do also.
--===--
Daniel
# 17 Re: Follow-ups
I found something very similar at this site ...
http://www.informit.com. If you are a registered user, this site allows you to read books and save bookmarks as part of your personal profile.
dev-archive could allow us to save "post-marks" in our profile. Searching for posts when you need them is almost impossible.
Kailash
