LOC estimates GUI developed apps
Source Linces of Code provide a useful measure when estimating manpower in some circles. That said, there seems to be considerable debates and opinions on the importance or lack thereof on counting lines of code that's automatically generated in a GUI environment - for instance MFC.
The argument is essentially two fold:
1. The 'developer' did not write the automatically generated line of code and as such should NOT take credit for the effort.
2. Theres a considerable amount of effort placed into 'designing' ( to include layout .. ie button selections and all those wonderful controls) GUI windows, and as such the need to differentiate between automatically generated lines of code and the 'hand' coded version is preposterous.
The question. How does dev-archive members handle SLOC estimates on automatically generated code for GUI developed apps?
Thanks
[946 byte] By [
mop] at [2007-11-18 8:04:32]

# 1 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
I think that I would get very, very annoyed if anyone tried to rate me by the number of lines of code I wrote in any given period. This strikes me as a quite ridiculous measure of performance and should be treated with the same contempt as the use of "graphology" as a recruiting technique.
Graham at 2007-11-9 12:14:10 >

# 2 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
Originally posted by Graham
I think that I would get very, very annoyed if anyone tried to rate me by the number of lines of code I wrote in any given period. This strikes me as a quite ridiculous measure of performance and should be treated with the same contempt as the use of "graphology" as a recruiting technique.
Me too! If all of us are being rated against the number of lines generated, it would ultimately encourage us to do "Copy-and-Paste programming" in order to become more productive. This will, of course, lead to more unmaintainable codes.
Kheun at 2007-11-9 12:15:11 >

# 3 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
Originally posted by mop
Source Linces of Code provide a useful measure when estimating manpower in some circles. That said, there seems to be considerable debates and opinions on the importance or lack thereof on counting lines of code that's automatically generated in a GUI environment - for instance MFC.
A direct answer is, in my experience, automatically generated code is not counted. However, I do understand that counting the lines of code written is used as a tool to evaluate man hours for a project and sometimes even performance of an individual programmer. (by God's grace I have never had to directly deal with that).
However, in my opinion, you are asking your question to the wrong audience. The majority of the people that you will find here deal directly with the code (i.e. programmers and systems analyst) and we generally do not view a line count as anything of value, especially when judging the quality of a project or in evaluation of the time needed to finish a project.
In addition, it has been my experience that the better the design of a given project, the less lines of code it will contain than if it was designed poorly. For example, my first design and alpha implementation of a project is generally larger and buggier than my final design and gold implementation.
I said all this really just to say that you asked the wrong audience, but as with Graham and Kheun, this post hit a nerve that resulted in more lines in my response. :)
Sincerely,
Kendall Russell
kenrus at 2007-11-9 12:16:19 >

# 4 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
For starters, I chose this forum "Non-Visual C++ Issues' issues for that specific reason, hence I'm not sure where you're going with regard to comments highlighting the 'wrong audience'.
The questions within this forum - for the most part run the gamut - and have been in my opinion quite edifying. Simply put, I've asked C implementation questions, etc. etc. and have gotten some sound guidance from time to time from Paul, Graham, Philip etc. etc. - to name a few.
In the end, I too have to deal directly with the code and would like not to differentiate between automatically generated lines of code versus 'programmer' code for GUI apps. Trouble is, 'TODAY' procedures and policies dont permit that. If it hits your nerve
then imagine what 'we're' faced with when trying to provide justification on why automatically generated LOC SHOULD be (my position) included in estimates.
My apologies to you, Graham, Kheun and whomever else..
mop at 2007-11-9 12:17:14 >

# 5 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
mop,
I apologize, I didn't mean to give the impression that the question was offensive or even that this forum was inappropriate to ask the question.
I think that your question is perfectly acceptable here, the only thing I was trying to say is that, in my opinion and only my opinion, the majority of users here would not know the answer to your question. Mainly because a coder or analyst looks at other factors instead of line count.
Your question did hit a nerve, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Atleast at my work place, "hitting a nerve" usually initiates very interesting discussions in which I learn a lot.
Sincerely,
Kendall Russell
kenrus at 2007-11-9 12:18:13 >

# 6 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
Originally posted by Graham
I think that I would get very, very annoyed if anyone tried to rate me by the number of lines of code I wrote in any given period. This strikes me as a quite ridiculous measure of performance and should be treated with the same contempt as the use of "graphology" as a recruiting technique.
Graphology?
Is that sort of like feeling the bumps on one's head ?
-Kendall
kenrus at 2007-11-9 12:19:16 >

# 7 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
There's an interesting article on Developer.com about this.
Developer.com article ( http://www.developer.com/mgmt/article.php/988641)
Graphology is the study of handwriting.
# 8 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
I read the article which asks a very good question -- what if you reduce the number of lines by several thousand, and replace it with a 200 lines of good code that accomplishes more, is easily extensible and is easier to maintain than the original? Is this negative productivity because you've eliminated lines of code? I wish I worked for a company, just for one week, that measured "the lines of code" as being productive. I would just love to lay that one on them.
Regards,
Paul McKenzie
# 9 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
Good article. I've always maintained that I'm doing my best work when I'm wandering around away from the keyboard. I've been fortunate in mostly having managers who understand that.
Graham at 2007-11-9 12:22:19 >

# 10 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
Is that best work...
or least harm?
:p :) :D hehehe
# 11 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
I think rating people against the number of lines generated is not accurate at all. There are many instances that experienced programmer can deliver code that does the same thing yet shorter.
Ultimately, the success of a project depends on whether can we meet the project schedule, delivering features required by customer and lastly, delivering easily understandable and maintainable code. The last point is very important for the project to extend its useful lifespan.
Kheun at 2007-11-9 12:24:19 >

# 12 Re: LOC estimates GUI developed apps
[Moved to a more appropriate forum]