ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Sup guys,
This is related to electromagnectic radiation which is emited by ALL electric objects but at low levels, first of all is that true and second you need radiation filters to work with them right?
Note to all Humans : There are many issues you get from this stuff including - http://www.ergoindemand.com/Hanging-Mount.htm and that's the least.
Thanks.
# 1 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
I used to worry about all that stuff, but haven't since I started wearing a foil hat. :)
Arjay at 2007-11-9 13:02:11 >

# 2 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Lol :p
# 3 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
:ehh: @ my 1986 GE Dual Wave II microwave
# 4 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
All objects that work using electricity have an electromagnetic field and hence radiate (including your cellphone). However, not all need radiation filters for you to work using them.
The filter that you linked is more of an anti-glare filter that touts radiation-blocking capabiltities. It's more pronounced effect will however be to reduce strain on the eyes. It can definitely not stop radiation that does not occur from directly behind it.
Some studies claim to prove a marked increase in the temperature of certain parts of the brain due to prolonged cellphone usage (as cellphones use microwave frequencies). To be on the safe side, as the cellphone is a radiation emmitter, you should consider keeping it as far from your body as possible and not using it for too long either - that notwithstanding the fact that you can compare the radiation emitted by a phone before buying it and that good phones do block a certain amount of the radiation they create.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone-radiation2.htm
# 5 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
:ehh: again @ my 1984 Hoover Convertible Elite vacuum cleaner.
I wonder if all of these old appliances of mine are whats causing this growth on my navel...
But they work so good!
# 6 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
When I was 12, I noticed that holding a bulk tape eraser from Radio Shack, which is essentially an electromagnet of about the same power as a ceiling fan's motor (the magnetic drive portion), next to my temple, I could see ripples in my vision.
We weren't so careful back in the 70's, you know :)
I've grabbed exposed 117 volt power leads (lost control of my arms for about 2 seconds). Now that's an intimate connection to radiation :eek:
I didn't read the article in Popular Electronics explaining that color TV's of the 70's (the old Tube types especially) emitted X ray radiation, especially if you 'fiddled' with them while they were on, until AFTER I had fiddled with it while it was on :rolleyes:
What a surprise to discover, at the full adult age of about 32, that the old 'hand held' 3inch B&W portable battery operated television used a REAL CRT for the display, and even THAT had about the power of a mild stun gun. I 'discovered' that fact trying to adjust the tube's alignment and, well, touched something 'hot'. From 4 AA batteries comes quite a jolt when passed through a miniature flyback transformer. My guess: 10,000 volts - I heard a definite SNAP as it seemed to literally bite me!
I still have that TV, too. My wife uses it now and then.
Now, a tangential side note of similar dangers we can't do anything about (or seem to, for one reason or other)...
Look into solar radiation, ozone, cosmic background radiation and X-Ray astronomy. Occasionally we're hit with some kind of radiation throughout our lives, some of it constant.
Of course, the increasing microwave traffic for cell phones MIGHT be a little stronger than that, but I don't think we're going to stop using cellphone until RaleTheBlade's navel growth resembles a miniature twin.
To my mind, though, the strangest of all such concepts: a very dense particle passed straight through the Earth!
This hasn't been widely publicized because it's probably nothing more than a mere curiosity. Seismic sensors are placed all over the Earth, monitoring for all kinds of 'Earth noises' that mean something to scientists that study that sort of thing.
A few years ago (I don't recall when), sensors marked a 'pop' or 'ping' that took a decidedly curious pattern. After some mapping of the sound, it became obvious that, without MUCH doubt, some tiny particle struck the Earth a one point, passed through the planet (as I recall fairly near the core), and EXITED the other side of the planet.
The speed of the object didn't change much. It was, apparently very small - microscopic. Small enough that if it had passed through a living being, it may not have left a noticeable mark, and it might not have caused enough damage to be any trouble - smaller than a living cell. It's density, however, is not that of 'normal' matter (normal being that which we're familiar with from childhood).
It's not as dense as a primordial black hole, so far as the theory goes, but somewhere around 1/10th to 1/50th or so of that density. That microscopic particle must have weighed over 1 ton. It had such inertia, and pushed its force into such a tiny area, at such a velocity, that it barely slowed down as it punched through.
A difficult particle to capture and study, but apparently part of nature, and something ELSE we have to dodge and worry about, if that's the kind of attitude one has on the subject.
There's probably more that we don't know about than what we've discovered so far.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:07:21 >

# 7 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
That particle you are speaking of JVene must be smaller than microscopic if it were to pass through a human being or the planet without being noticed I would think. I mean, I would assume that if it had as much mass (1 ton) as stated, it would have to be on a subatomic level in order to avoid the repercussions of gravity and heat as it entered and left the atmosphere.
I do believe particles such as these exist, just as all matter in the universe exists in some way shape or form. Could this be an example of the elusive "dark matter"? Things such as those on a subatomic level would easily pass through other atoms. But I wonder if I'm going down the wrong path is saying so...
# 8 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Ermm.. Can someone please provide a link to the article... ?
How can a tiny particle with a mass of a ton pass though the planet without affecting the gravitational or magnetic or electic fields of the planet (i.e. bending radiation around it?). Or may be it did and was noticed because it impacted the fields?
Now, I am curious... :D
# 9 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
I don't think this is the article I first read on the subject, but a google for 'seismic particle pass through Earth' gave this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2502755.stm
and
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/strangelets_020513.html
and from another article in that search, this curious quote
But strange quark matter is rather mysterious itself. Physicist Edward Witten first proposed the existence of these extremely small, dense, and fast particles in 1984. In theory, they would zip through space at hundreds of kilometers per second. And because they would pack three types of quarks into their structurecalled "up," "down," and "strange"their density would be more than a trillion times greater than the familiar matter around us, which incorporates only two quark varieties. So despite being as tiny as an atom's nucleus, a particle of strange quark matter could weigh several kilograms. A ton of it would be the size of a blood cell, said Vigdor Teplitz of the Astrophysics Science Division at Goddard Space Flight Center via email.
Amazing stuffif it exists. Strange quark matter has never been observed.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:10:21 >

# 10 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
maybe a loose gluon, or anti-matter(i think this is also called dark matter but im not sure). but its certainly interesting
# 11 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Anti-matter and dark matter are different notions. Dark matter is mentioned a little the quote in my post above, anti-matter has positrons where matter has electrons, and anti-protons where matters has protons, meaning the charges are reverse polarity, but otherwise it's just like matter.
That particle you are speaking of JVene must be smaller than microscopic if it were to pass through a human being or the planet without being noticed I would think. I mean, I would assume that if it had as much mass (1 ton) as stated, it would have to be on a subatomic level in order to avoid the repercussions of gravity and heat as it entered and left the atmosphere.
It's a function of size vs force. The tip of an F22 is going to 'part' the air better than the nose of a 757, because it's so much smaller.
Something the size of a single blood cell, even at 1 ton, is below the threshold of the size our nerves would sense, and would hardly create much of a hole in which to 'leak' blood cells, so the damage would be nearly unnoticeable (from one particle).
If you think of a bullet against wood, vs a bullet against rock, the speed is a small fraction of the speed this particle I'm referencing was moving. The bullet would be perhaps millions of times larger in diameter, so it's not that hard to imagine the scale of the effect.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:12:20 >

# 12 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
jvene..
i know of space radiation, where astronauts see white swirly lines when they close there eyes because of it(i dont know if they found it what it axatly is but they dint know what it was when i saw documentary about the space nauts), how is this particle diffrent?
# 13 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
I was thinking along the lines of size and velocity. Granted the particle may be small, but if its traveling fast enough to go through the earth, then it must be moving at an incredible rate of speed.
Take a particle that weighs 1 ton as we have stated. That particle traveling at (for example) 1500 km/s wouldnt have as much power as the same particle if it was traveling at 5000 km/s. As velocity increases, so does momentum.
What I was getting at was, if this particle was moving fast enough to go through the earth, wouldn't the force be detectable in some way shape or form? We can detect light with photometers, and to think of a particle that could move faster than light would be incredible.
# 14 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
I was thinking along the lines of size and velocity. Granted the particle may be small, but if its traveling fast enough to go through the earth, then it must be moving at an incredible rate of speed.
Take a particle that weighs 1 ton as we have stated. That particle traveling at (for example) 1500 km/s wouldnt have as much power as the same particle if it was traveling at 5000 km/s. As velocity increases, so does momentum.
What I was getting at was, if this particle was moving fast enough to go through the earth, wouldn't the force be detectable in some way shape or form? We can detect light with photometers, and to think of a particle that could move faster than light would be incredible.
i was thiking axactly the same thing there is no way a particle at that velocity is unnoticed unless its sub level particle like gluon, but we havent heard the full story did we, for all we know it could have been a fluctuation or even a spast in the earths magnetic field, or maybe both.
and also who said that huge velocity was caused by inertia?
i myself do not believe in inertia, it rather believe in evrything thats connected (forces) that is manipulating eachother's movement
# 15 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
If that happens, researchers will see a kind of matter never seen on
Earth, an ultrahot, ultradense soup called a quark-gluon plasma. Quarks
are the basic particles that combine to form protons and neutrons; gluons
are the particles that hold them together. Smashed against each other hard
enough, protons and neutrons can undergo a "phase transition," turning
into quark-gluon plasma like water vaporizing into steam. These plasmas
live fast and die young, so RHIC has four detectors, each designed to look
for different signs of its passing. For example, the transition should
kick off certain particles at specific ratios, trajectories and speeds�all
of which the detectors pick up. They'll also measure temperature, because
theory says it should hold steady while the transition is in progress.
so it must have been VERY small to not cause ANY dmg at all..
haha while i was searching:
Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island, N.Y., has just finished a
huge accelerator capable of smashing together the nuclei of very heavy
atoms at nearly the speed of light. Builders of this machine hope that
collisions of gold or other atoms will not only shatter the atoms' nuclei
into their constituent protons and neutrons, but will pulverize the
protons and neutrons themselves, leaving a "plasma" -- a kind of energy
soup -- briefly consisting of loose quark and gluon particles. These
building blocks of matter have never before been studied in such a state.
But no one is quite sure what these collisions might spawn, and the
uncertainty has encouraged some people to speculate that Brookhaven's new
accelerator might turn out to be a doomsday machine.
Last month, The Sunday Times of London informed readers that Brookhaven
might have created a world-devouring monster. The British weekly commented
that "the men in white coats would send us, and them, into the oblivion of
a black hole of their making." (In reality, accelerator physicists wear
jeans and sport shirts, but never mind.)
In one version of the supposed danger, a gold-to-gold collision might
create "strange" quarks that would pair up as "strangelets." These
supposedly might go on to annihilate the ordinary matter around them,
ending the world as we know it.
# 16 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Well, mass x velocity gives you momentum. A collision between two VW Beetles wouldn't be terribly tragic at low speeds, but take a semitruck and smash it into a VW at those sames speeds (and enjoy the wonderful image :p ) and the VW would be totaled. Hence the difference in momentum.
The more momentum an object has, the more force it exerts on the physics around it.
Also, I just thought of something. Wouldn't a particle have to be accelerated beyond the speed of light in order to go through the earth? Seeing as how light cannot penetrate through the earth. Though I suppose light and physical matter are two totally different areas. So that isn't very sound I guess.
But another thing, if particles were accelerated at super high speeds, wouldn't their own movement cause them to produce light energy or if they went fast enough, become unstable and break apart?
# 17 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
light is just a wave of photons and alot of this light is absorbed or reflected by earths magnetic field and atmosphere , it just proves how small it should have been, and there is no doubt about particles traveling faster than the speed of light sinds particles emitted by nuclear power plant move at the speed of light(u can see the water glowing clear blue)
also if u think about it, a wave of photons is not axactly an efficient way of moving fast straight into a direction is it? oviously this particle has been shot out and therefore it must have been a heavy nuclei radiation ( but it doesnt match the descriptions that ntohing terrible has happened when it shot trough the earth...)
http://lighttheory.com/light/proposed.htm
But another thing, if particles were accelerated at super high speeds, wouldn't their own movement cause them to produce light energy or if they went fast enough, become unstable and break apart?
yes you are right. when reading about heavy nuclei cosmic radiation, it says it produces a huge amount of photons.
so the more i think and read about it, the more i think this was just a magnetic spast of our earth. and scientist do have proof something is wrong with our earths magnetic field(maybe it WAS a particle and ****ed our planet ...), they have shown through the magnetic residu of lava, that the planet is shifting polarities in X thousand years... its really a mystery but all we can do is think about it logically, and think of a good theory.. and i do think it should have been VERY small not to cause any damage, or maybe we were just lucky it dint hit anything.
# 18 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Mitsukai:
Radiation would be different that a mass particle. Radiation could be electromagnetic, having no mass. When they speak of particles of radiation, they're talking about quarks as particles of energy. This massive particle is made of quarks, but fashioned as matter (matter made of 2 types of quarks, theoretically this thing might be made of 3 quarks).
RaleTheBlade:
It was fast, that's for sure....
In the links I posted above, one article says:
One event occurred on 22 October 1993, when, according to the researchers, something entered the Earth off Antarctica and left it south of India 0.73 of a second later.
The other occurred on 24 November 1993, when an object entered south of Australia and exited the Earth near Antarctica 0.15 of a second later.
Though, without some trig, I can't turn that into a velocity.
Other articles describe these particles are "presumed to be 10 million times more dense than lead, and travel largely undetected through space at roughtly 1 million mph".
They were detected passing through Earth, and there were seismic 'pings' associated with it, but any damage is so small as to be unrecognizable. Even a 'sonic boom' associated with the column of it's travel path would have a very small size, dissipating so rapidly that a detector would have to be very close to measure the energy in the atmosphere.
The solid material of Earth, on the other hand, would have been more affected, and at such lengths of travel through it's interior, the result was noticed as a seismic noise. It's faint, though.
I don't think the particle was close to relativistic speeds, but it was fast.
When I mentioned one article's observation that it could pass through the human body unnoticed, that doesn't mean unmeasurable. It simply wouldn't have been felt or caused recognizable damage because the site of injury is smaller than the cells it would likely affect. We get more damage from minor infections than that.
From RaleTheBlade:
Also, I just thought of something. Wouldn't a particle have to be accelerated beyond the speed of light in order to go through the earth?
Not really. Search on the theory of the origin of our moon. The best, most accepted theory, is that Earth was once smaller, and ANOTHER PLANET was in orbit close by, about the size of Mars.
The two collided, melding, and from the far side of Earth emerged some portion of the colliding planet, which eventually settled into the lunar orbit, forming the moon.
The core of that planet pushed material clear through this one - though it was more of a kinetic exchange, and certainly no where near the speed of light.
Besides, inertia increases with velocity such that for any mass particle, the inertia reaches infinity as you reach the speed of light. This means it requires an infinite amount of force to reach light speed. Mass particles won't be traveling AT light speed, and certainly not faster, in our universe.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:19:29 >

# 19 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Yes, I know about how the moon was theoretically created. Though it was created using a much larger mass at slower speeds. Hence if you tip the scale the other way and use a much lesser mass at much higher speeds, theoretically the same result could be achieved :D
# 20 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
What I was getting at was, if this particle was moving fast enough to go through the earth, wouldn't the force be detectable in some way shape or form? We can detect light with photometers, and to think of a particle that could move faster than light would be incredible.
As far as I know this particle would theoretically 'warp' or better known as time travel. Anything that moves faster then light warps but it also depends on how fast its going.
And just as a side note Anti-Matter is created when 2 atoms smash together at VERY HIGH speeds.
(Who impressed with my 14 year-old knowledge ?:p)
Thanks.
# 21 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Yes but that doesn't answer the question of how we could detect a particle moving that fast :p haha.
However, a particle with the weight of one ton moving at post-light speed would generate an incredible amount of momentum. It would have to be detectable somehow.
p = mv
Its one of the most fundamental laws of physics, no matter the size of the object. You could say "Well if the object was the same mass and bigger, wouldn't it generate more momentum because of a larger surface area?" and the answer is no. Size does not fit into that equation, just mass x velocity.
271, 968, 719.97302 p = 907.19 kg X 299, 792.458 km/s
Yes, I use the metric system because its better.
Anti-matter is created when two atoms smash together as super high speed, yes. But can you explain what happens when they do? How the polarity is switched and why? lol
# 22 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
You and JVene seem to be the best scientist here :)
# 23 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
You and JVene seem to be the best scientist here :)
I wish, I'm good at theory but not at the actual math, lol. Id prolly fit better in the cosmologist category. But if there was any one person I would like to meet it would be Albert Einstein himself, hence the quote :D
# 24 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
JVene,
I found an article that describes the particles we were discussing:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21334310/?GT1=10450&pg=11#Space_10StrangeSpaceThings_071011
"Neutrinos are electrically neutral, virtually mass-less elementary particles that can pass through miles of lead unhindered"
Only thing is that theyre allegedly "mass-less" particles, which doesn't add up (quite literally!) to the theory that the particles passing through earth are super dense and have a mass near 1 ton.
# 25 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
That's because they're not the same particle observed by seismic sensors (though we're not entirely sure what it was that did).
It's true that neutrinos are probably passing harmlessly through the planet, but then a number of various phenomenon are doing the same. The wouldn't leave a seismic ping at one point on the Earth, then another at an exit point a short time later, precisely because they're massless.
The particle that did ping the planet was quite small, but dense, moving at somewhere over 500K MPH. It does present quite a mystery, but the features of what can do that are understood (by physicists far more educated in the matter that I).
I know it counters common sense that an object could pass through what we see as solid Earth without leaving a devastating impact sight so obvious that it would make international news, but that's a judgment of disbelieve spawned by our common experience with material that's always been thousands of times larger, moving much slower, with less that 1% of the mass. It's a much more dramatic difference than the blade of butterknife vs a razor blade - millions of times more dramatic a difference, with millions of times more velocity.
The mass/speed factor doesn't equate to massive displacement, either. That's why we're not seeing a major impact crater or some other obvious damage. If the surface area of the object were larger, certainly, but this thing is so small that it doesn't need to displace much to keep moving. The Earth's density is barely that of a cotton ball compared to this particle, and it's smaller than the strands that comprise cotton ball. It might seem like it should have a more recognizable impact, but a physical simulation would reveal that impact is so localized that the entire diameter of the damage to Earth is smaller than the cross section of a human hair.
It's fascinating to contemplate, and may even be significant. If, and I hope this is such a big if as to be a 1 in a billion year occurrence, there were a sample of this stuff that has .1 mm in diameter, you probably would see a crater upon impact. The particles that apparently were noticed in the seismic data were much smaller than that.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:26:37 >

# 26 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
That electromagnetic radiation has got a lot to answer for. I mean, it keeps on converting my rhodopsin to bathrhodopsin, and I can't stop it. It's a worry.
I wonder if the "strangelets" referred to in one of those articles are related to primordial black holes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius#Primordial_black_hole). Mind you, they would have a mass a bit more than a ton (approximately that of Mount Everest).
On the subject of wierd (or heavy) particles, how about a proton with the mass of a bacterium (http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/OhMyGodParticle/)?
Graham at 2007-11-9 13:27:45 >

# 27 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
How is it that these particles even achieve the speeds they get to?
Also we're taught at school that there are 3 states of matter, solid, liquid and gas. Well then what the heck is light?
Did you lot know that in a few billion years Andromeda, the Milky Way and some other galaxy will be colliding? We(and Andromeda) are supposedly being pulled in by a black hole.
Finally, how do forces like gravity, magnetic waves and even things like light pass through with no mediums? I mean that we're getting the sun's light and heat and there's barely anything between us.
Thanks.
# 28 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Scientists arent exactly sure how particles like the Oh-My-God Particles ( :lol: great name ) reach these speeds. They could be due to superstellar explosions I think...
Light isn't a form of matter, it is transported as things called "photons".
I read somewhere the Andromeda would be colliding with is in a few billion years, yes, and then our galaxy and Andromeda will start eating each other so to speak and become a new galaxy.
Heat from the sun is transmitted in waves such as microwaves and radio waves. Other things produce heat, such as radiation in gamma and ultraviolet rays.
As for magnetism, its a phenomenon of physics. Say you have an atom with 10 protons (+) and 6 electrons (-) and you have another atom that contains 6 protons (+) and 10 electrons(-). These two atoms will naturally be attracted to each other in order to exchange electrons and gain a neutral charge. However, in certain metals such as iron, the atoms are so stable that they will never exchange sub-atomic particles and therefore remain magnetic forever or until another magnetic object with the necessary atomic structure comes along and the two object exchange and become neutral. Thats my understanding of it...
# 29 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Never stop thinking, do you? That's the way it should be...
The heavy particles I was talking about seem to come from way outside the solar system. The galaxy is rotating at about one revolution in 225 million years, but at 100,000 light years across, that means we're moving along fairly fast ourselves. Speed is always relative. When we encounter particles that are in an orbit inclined to the plane of our galaxy, or more elliptical, its much like the comets travels we encounter, or the meteors or asteroids, but the scale isn't solar, its galactic, so the relative speed differences are greater. They didn't start out still and get pushed, everything in the galaxy is spinning around some central gravity source. If they come AT each other from different directions (even 90 degree or 30 degree angles, not just head on), the relative speeds can be surprising.
Light is thought to be energy made of quanta. Actually, your question is the origin of some of the most profound thinking in science, and the reason Einstein is famous. Matter is energy bound into a form. When that energy is released you can get an atomic explosion (good thing it stays bound).
We are indeed on a collision coarse, but it may not be so bad. It should take several billion years to begin, and a few hundred million to complete. It will work out more like two clouds colliding than any genuine catastrophic occurrence, though I'm sure there will be some drama here and there.
Hmmm...light not passing through a medium. Curious premise to the question. In one sense we could say the void of space IS a medium (a dimension) - and that's all light needs. There was a time when scientists thought energy DID need a medium (once called the ether). It turned out not to exist.
Indeed, Tesla demonstrated energy could be transferred without wires (look up the Tesla coil), though his technique actually did depend on the air.
The various electromagnetic radiations are actually impeded by mediums (air, water, glass). Glass is solid, yet light passes through. Lead is solid, but it blocks light. The difference is simply the way light particles interact with that material.
If you would enjoy an 'gentle' way to understand the state of the science, I highly recommend the book "A brief history of time" by Steven Hawkins. It's a fantastic discussion from A to Z, without the requirement of dedicated study. Hardly anything else satisfies quite so well.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:30:42 >

# 30 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
If you would enjoy an 'gentle' way to understand the state of the science, I highly recommend the book "A brief history of time" by Steven Hawkins. It's a fantastic discussion from A to Z, without the requirement of dedicated study. Hardly anything else satisfies quite so well.
Hawking is the Einstein of our generation! I have the utmost respect for that man. After all the trials he has faced, he still goes through life with dignity and continues his studies with fervor.
I just got done discussing some aspects of astro-physics with a co-worker and came to the idea that made one of Einsteins theories famous.
E = mc2 basically stated that not only can energy be calculated by multiplying the mass of the object by the speed of light squared, but it states that as matter moves towards the speed of light, it BECOMES energy. Revolutionary! The reverse is true as well, if we could somehow slow light down, it would become some form of matter. Hows that for a head rush?
Jvene,
As for that central gravity source. Do you think there could be a super black hole at the center of our universe? My co-worker and I also discussed the edge of the universe and if it exists. I say it does, but it doesn't, we're encapsulated in different dimensions, each held together by worm holes that are strewn through black holes.
Ever wonder where some of the matter in our universe came from? Perhaps it was all spewed out from a white hole trillions of trillions of years ago from another universal dimension.
# 31 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
As for that central gravity source. Do you think there could be a super black hole at the center of our universe?
The rotation I was talking about is the galaxy's rotation, and there's a black hole at that center.
As for the universe itself, I don't think we've seen any evidence of a central gravitational anchor. The expansion we do see would suggest that even if there were, it's not sufficient to pull matter toward it. No doubt there are some black holes that are so massive as to qualify as super-beyond-imagination mass, but it seems even that pales in comparison to the vast distances involved.
As far as an edge to the universe, there is one that's possibly a visible effect more than a true edge. When we look at objects 13 billion light years away, we're seeing objects that appeared at the presumed creation of the universe. At some distance just beyond that, the expansion of the universe reaches a velocity such that objects even further out are leaving at or beyond the speed of light, and therefore the light can never reach us. That defines an edge of visibility, a horizon of information, but not necessarily the end of material.
That sounds like a contradiction given earlier statements that matter can't exceed the speed of light, but there's a catch. It's not the matter itself that's propelled beyond the speed of light, it's the fabric of space-time that's expanding such that the relative observed motion appears to exceed the speed of light. The material isn't moving faster than light does IN THAT REGION - and that's what's important, because all velocities are relative to the speed of light in the local frame of reference.
Its enough to make you shake your head like a horse dodging flies.
Ever wonder where some of the matter in our universe came from? Perhaps it was all spewed out from a white hole trillions of trillions of years ago from another universal dimension.
This may be close to the truth. As I understand it, matter COULD be created out of the vacuum of space. Quanta are constantly emerging and disappearing in that vacuum, but when the opposing quanta particles never reach, energy is created. That occurs at the event horizon of black holes, as Hawkins theorized, which causes the smaller holes to glow. Conservation is observed, though, because the result decreases the mass of the hole in proportion, and is the mechanism by which black holes can 'evaporate' - a resemblance to a small scale big bang.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:32:41 >

# 32 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
there are already devices that freeze light rays considerably. They also use this to make Holographic images(actually they are freezing nano-particles, but concept is same), some holographic screens are made with counter-lasers, because its less energy consuming.
Sorry for confusing the mass particle from jvene to be a radiation particle, basicly jvene was off-topic and got confused ;)
as for black-holes, and time-travel, they are really far-fetched theories, and i do not believe in them.
they have tried to send information at the speed of light, but havent succeeded, as soon as a bit info is send it slows down alot. So they theorize in order for non-light particles to move at the speed of light it has to be light.
But what you are trieing to say rale is the phase-transition of matter to energy. It does exist, its called quark-gluon plasma, try it out on google.
# 33 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
its called quark-gluon plasma
Sounds tasty!
But Mitsukai, how do you explain the movement of stars in certain clusters towards a central point and then the light from them just vanishing? Thats one of the first observations that led to the theory of black holes.
Hmm... I got to thinking. Perhaps at one point in time, matter as we know it now (solid, liquid, gas) existed as pure energy during the beginning of the universe. And then over the billions of years somehow slowed down (gravity from a massive object?) and condensed and when the energy slowed to a certain point it became mass.
On that same note, maybe black holes are producing "light mass" as they pull light in. Because in order for a semi-stationary object to pull something into itself it must first slow the object down. I mean, it sounds plausible.
# 34 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
I know about the movement of mass disappearing into one point. But the model about those black holes they have now, just doesnt sound logical.
While general relativity describes a black hole as a region of empty space with a pointlike singularity at the center and an event horizon at the outer edge, the description changes when the effects of quantum mechanics are taken into account. Research on this subject indicates that, rather than holding captured matter forever, black holes may slowly leak a form of thermal energy called Hawking radiation.[5][6][7] However, the final, correct description of black holes, requiring a theory of quantum gravity, is unknown.
on the page about black-holes, quark-gluon plasma seems to be coming back...
# 35 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
they have tried to send information at the speed of light, but havent succeeded,
Huh? You can transmit information with radio waves (or light, or pretty much any form of electromagnetic radiation) and they travel at the speed of light.
For good stuff about the big bang, the nature of space-time and quantum/string theory, I recommend The Elegant Universe and The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene.
Graham at 2007-11-9 13:36:52 >

# 36 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Wow, you guys are seriously clever! Why the hell don't we get this stuff taught at our school? If they taught it I'd definitely listen!
What actually pulls us inwards(gravity)?
How is glass see through? It seems to be a mix of water and solid.
What is custard? Solid or liquid(if it was in a swimming pool you'll go through, if it was in your hand it'll stay).
How is infrared invisible?
If infrared is light and is invisible doesn't this mean we could use infrared in theory to turn things invisible?
How does a computer screen make colors without real life examples(its like they create their own dimensions in which colors are defined as something)?
What is the shape of the Universe?
How are most planets spherical? Gravity would have to be constant to create the shape. What I mean by this is that depending on how far the gravity energy goes then energy in that radius remains constant(so all of a 1m, 3m, 5 inches and any other radius would be constant).
What is the smallest life existing? Numbers simply can go down for ever and the question is how small is the smallest creature(is it 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000223342423823948298492843?).
Thanks.
# 37 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Infrared is light and is invisible, this mean we could use infrared to turn things visible, in low light conditions only. :) (to the human eye)
# 38 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Infrared is not light, its radiation.
Light is a wave of photons, a photon is a particle that holds a particle with itselve. (there are new theories made about what a photon exactly is...)
Glass is silicum, they used to make glass from some certain types of rock.
U can not make mass 'invisible', because light is always manipulated within the mass and reflected by the mass. the closest thing for a human to be invisible is transparent blood and bone.
The smallest living organism we know is a bacteria. (look for theoretical nano-bacteria)
We still dont know how gravity actually pulls us.
They used to think that gravity is a particle.
But now they are making other theories, that gravity is rather a property of matter.
Gravity could be a sign that matter is actually not a stable substance.
A stranglet creates so much gravity that it creates a black hole.
Planets are round because of gravity is angular, and because when they were born they were liquid or gas form.
Computer screens, what type? CRT uses vacuum and magnetic fields to bend a beam of light. LCD uses cone shaped crystals, use electricty to put them in the right position, then send light through. Plasma uses substances mostly found in space to create colors and sends light through.
# 39 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Technically light is electromagnetic radiation, and infrared is light. So is ultraviolet, but the infrared light is not what's invisible. It's that you're blind to it.
If it weren't pcbrainbuster's own thread, I'd say we've drifted way out, but since we're here...:)
As to why they're not teaching it in your school; it's because you're not yet among the grades that usually include this stuff in the curriculum. Some of it is a summary, or digest, of material not presented until you get into university.
Gravity is the least understood of the forces of nature. We don't really know what it is, though we understand fairly well what it does, just not how the force comes into being. It may be the last 'secret' to unlock before we get to the really good stuff (or scary, depending on just what's behind that door - I think nuclear power and it's counterpart was scary enough).
Actually, your question about how a display makes color is linked to your inquiry about the visibility of infrared light. The same goes for ultraviolet light.
The start of the discussion works like this: light is an electromagnetic energy wave, which we're fairly sure is 'packaged' in particles called quanta. Think, perhaps, droplets of energy streaming at lightspeed. As they move, they also 'vibrate' - possibly in a 3D spiral, but from the side it's just a sine wave - a wavy line.
As the light speed past you, the rate of the vibrations relate to the color. The faster the vibration, the more toward ultraviolet the light becomes, the slower the vibration, the more toward infrared.
Your eye has 3 color receptor types (and has about a million of each of them, if memory serves - assuming you perceive color, some few can't). One color receptor for each of the 'primary' light colors we see, red, green and blue. All of the color you 'know' is a mix of the pressure of each of these 3 primary colors. Each receptor type is more sensitive to light of a particular range of frequencies than any other range, so your vision is comprised of 3 images, one in each of these primary colors.
Some animals are known to have more color receptor types than the 3 we know. Insects can see in ultraviolet. To them, its a color unique to itself. Flowers, it appears, have an invisible patter on them - but it's not the pattern that's invisible, its just that the light that pattern tends to reflect is ultraviolet. We're blind to ultraviolet, but some insects are not.
My underlying point here is that invisibility of light spectra isn't a property of the light itself, it's a limitation in our vision. There are a HUGE array of such perceptions we are blind to ourselves.
Dolphins, for example, can perform a kind of sonar imaging. They are known to be fascinated by the site of a pregnant woman swimming in the water. It seems they can 'see' the baby inside her.
Hammerhead sharks, among other predators, can sense electromagnetic resonances given off by living organisms - it lets them find something hiding under the sand - they can 'see' through the sand, but not in light - in the faint pulses of energy given off by the metabolism of a living organism.
A CRT or LCD produce color in the same way, by mixing the primary colors within a single pixel. If you get a magnifying glass and look closely, you'll see a trio of red/green and blue pixels everywhere you perceive white on the display. Mixing these 3 in equal measure produces a shade of gray, and at 'full' intensity of the design, it appears white(ish).
Your phrase "dimensions in color" is a curious choice. We do refer to it as a color space, but it's really quite simple math. Each pixel of an image is simply a specification of how much red, how much green and how much blue to mix together. It's your brain's interpretation of these intensities that causes you to perceive a particular color. The computer/crt/lcd isn't acting or working in terms of the millions of colors you see - that's your brain interpreting the mixture of these 3 pressures. Your eye is approximately sensitive to a 1% gradient of change in intensity, corresponding to approximately 4 or 5 million perceptible colors from a CRT, but there are color 'types' the CRT can't quite produce. Your brain interprets an image in 'full color' because it expects that's what it should see. It's hard to believe, but what you see is nearly half made up in your mind.
To prove that point, did you know there's a place in your vision where you're blind? It's known as the blind spot, and it's in a region of your retina where the nerve is bundled to exit the eye and connect to the brain. In this place there are no sensors. Why don't you see a hole in your vision there?
You mind has never mapped that place as missing! It, basically, warps your interpretation of that region of vision to make it SEEM perfectly contiguous and symmetrical. It's not.
We can't see the entire universe, so we can only predict it's shape from math, and since our models of the universe are quite incomplete, any answer regarding it's shape is a guess. It might be a curious fact that the only perception a living being could possibly have is from inside looking out, so thinking of a shape from the viewpoint of the outside looking in is, I submit, imaginary. The view we have, however, is spherical. Because of the limit of our vision, and the observation that the limit is equidistant in all directions, our view of the universe is spherical, but that's not an indication of its shape. We might have to think in terms of n dimensional shapes to even describe it, depending on what one actually calls the shape of the universe. Google for a 4th dimensional hypercube, or tesseract to imagine the direction I'm suggesting.
Planets are spherical because they're not exactly solid. Some asteroids are not spherical (they're oblong and irregular) because they are fairly solid. Earth, however, has a molten core covered by a range of substances we might call a wet powder (mud), which acts, over time, more like a liquid than a solid. A drop of water floating in freefall (no gravity) will coalesce naturally into a sphere because all of the forces that bind it together (largely surface tension with a tiny hint of gravity) pull equally from all directions, defining a spherical shape to the influence of those forces, expressing, as a result, a sphere in the physical result of the balance of those forces reaching equilibrium. Most planets spin fast enough to bulge at the equator.
Your observation that gravity has to be constant to create the shape is correct.
The smallest life form is probably around 10 millionths of a meter (10 micrometers), give or take about 20%.
I'm not certain custard falls neatly into the 3 matter stage category. It holds it's shape, which indicates it's a solid, but it's easily molded into another shape with minor effort, like a paste in a way. I recall reading that the 3 state classification has undergone an expansion, but I've not read on the subject. People like you asking these questions are why they've reconsidered. Which is why you should keep asking, especially if the answer you get isn't quite satisfactory.
Your inquiry about glass seeming a mix of liquid and solid is also curious. Glass isn't transparent because of the state of the matter, liquids can be opaque (mercury, for example). However, glass, even the seemingly solid glass objects around you, are known to 'flow' like a liquid, and the classification of glass has been said to be a liquid that flows extremely slowly. It sounds like a joke, actually, but it isn't. If you happen upon a very old building with an original glass pane, you might notice it looks like it has melted. That's because it has - it's original shape hasn't been retained, it is actually a liquid with an incredibly high surface tension that makes it behave like a solid, but only because of the speed with which the liquid flows.
Fluid dynamics is a rather non-simple study by itself, which I've forgotten years ago.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:40:56 >

# 40 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Technically light is electromagnetic radiation
wrong, light is a wave of photons, the assumption that photons were electrons has been corrected. it is diffrent than from normal elctromagnetic radiation
# 41 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
wrong, light is a wave of photons, the assumption that photons were electrons has been corrected. it is diffrent than from normal elctromagnetic radiation
Actually, all particles exhibit wave characteristics in addition to their particle characteristics - this includes Photons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality
# 42 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Its almost impossible to believe that liquid could have such tension. Hmm it seems man could actually walk on liquid :p
What makes mercury a metal?
What is around the universe(on the outside)?
How are dreams generated?
Just like light is it possible to focus touch? I mean that when you hit something the energy for the hit is dispersed around the object, but what happens if this was focused? Think about it, a measly touch could even crack(or make a hole) in concrete.
Is it possible to be immortal? I mean I think it IS possible, as far as I'm concerned the brain is the most important part of the body because everything else there has the job of keeping it in working order(it requires oxygen). If we were to somehow put the brain into some sort of metallic armor that is also a machine then we could have powerful bodies which supply the brain a constant amount of oxygen. And because it is a machine we could see everything (eg Ultraviolet, infrared, gravitational level, heat source, pressure, etc).
What do you think about it?
Thanks.
# 43 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Then why is it called the LIGHT SPECTRUM?
I mentioned infrared, because I have a video camera that has it built in.
I can go outside in pitch black, and look thru the viewfinder at the ground.
I see nothing.
Turn on the 'light' and everything is green, but easily identifiable. Good for finding keys in the rocks near the train tracks ;)
Recording gives you the 'green' version. Only good for about 5 feet though.
# 44 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
wrong, light is a wave of photons, the assumption that photons were electrons has been corrected. it is diffrent than from normal elctromagnetic radiation
I full well admit I'm just a tourist of the sciences. It's been decades since I was a student, and I can only summarize what we used to call book reports. So I don't want to start a raging argument about it, but check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation
The basic notion is that the frequency of the wave determines what we call it, but the division of light from, say, infrared isn't because it's somehow inherently different. It's kind of like thinking the sun is above the Earth because of our viewpoint. We see light, so we assume it's different, and have for centuries. Infrared is called a radiation, but it's not something entirely different from what we think of as red light, except we can see red light.
I don't recall when light was ever thought to be made of electrons. Perhaps you're thinking that the term 'electromagnetic' implies that its made of electrons, but I don't think that's the case. It refers to one of the forces of nature, and electrons flowing through a wire can give rise to that force, but I don't think it's comprised of electrons. I was always taught it is comprised of photons, and photons are what transfers the electromagnetic force, as in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon
At least what I'm saying is that these articles coincide with my understanding of the material.
Light is a wave a photons, you're correct about that.
Photons are the elementary particle that transfers the electromagnetic force.
Thus, light is an electromagnetic radiation, as is the other radiations transferred by the photon, and the differentiation of visible light from the other radiations, like X rays, microwaves, radio waves, infrared or ultraviolet radiations are essentially the same, differing in frequency.
What makes mercury a metal?
I'm not exactly sure how to answer the underlying nature of your question. Mercury is an element, meaning that it is recognizable as mercury even if a single atom exists, it's not a compound (a collection of molecules). The various elements are what they are by virtue of the number of protons in their nucleus, which corresponds to the number of electrons we usually find around that nucleus, which in turn defines how that element reacts with other elements. How or why this gives the various elements their respective properties I don't recall anyone ever explaining. I'm not sure there ever has been a theory that explains it satisfactorily, but my knowledge here is quite limited.
Focus touch? Interesting phrase! That goes back to the nature of that particle passing through Earth from several posts ago here. It's precisely because it's force was so concentrated in such a small area that it's effect on the Earth (or any 'normal' matter) is so surprising. Basically, applying force in a physically smaller surface is, I think, what you're saying by focus - if by touch you mean some measurable force.
Dreams are a mystery. We're not even certain what sleep is, from what I understand. The best I have ever visualized it is thus, and I'm certainly wandering into conjecture, as I think is admitted even by those professing the subject. The mind is the result of various specialized brain structures working in close unison. Consciousness is, perhaps, an illusion of this coalescence of cooperative actions. During sleep, it seems, these separate regions disconnect from each other, somewhat, and portions exhibit thoughts which aren't exactly connected with real experience. Without strong cross checks against the conclusions of other regions, disconnected regions of the brain are free to reach conclusions (and form ideas) entirely unique to dreams. There does appear to be some important mental functions that happen during sleep; short term memory seems to be better imprinted into long term storage (or at least that function is impaired in those deprived of sleep).
One famous dream led to a realization in chemistry. The benzine molecule wasn't well understood in the early 20th century (I think it was the 20th). It puzzled chemists as to how it existed and interacted as it does. One scientist had a dream about a snake consuming it's own tail, forming a circle. It seems his subconscious had a revelation about the shape of the molecule - it was in the form of a circle, and that was the solution to the puzzle. The tail of this molecule connected to it's head, forming a closed molecule that, at last, explained how it functioned as it did. I'm sure many such dreams have provided revelations, suggesting that, occasionally, the reduction in noise compared to our waking state can give rise to comprehension, but the imagery that results isn't clearly communicated during the dream, so it has to be artfully interpreted to make sense.
Immortality: a relative concept, I submit. The sun will not survive more than 10 billion years, probably less, so I'm told. I assume by then we'd have the means of leaving, but none of the universe will last as it is forever, so it comes down to whether or not we could adapt to the new conditions. It seems that eventually time runs out.
It does makes sense, though, that if we could keep the bio-machine running, we'd remain conscious and functional. Damage by accident would be the primary means of failure if we mastered the entire mechanics of the underlying machine. I believe, however, that we might not want the results. At some point, our experiences would run the limit of adventure and learning, so that everything would become routine - just the mechanics of survival mixed with the same, repeated actions that once gave pleasure and fascination. Ride a roller coaster two or three times, and that's fun. After 15 or 20 times, it's just another run through. Find another roller coaster, and then another, and eventually they're all just exercises in centrifugal forces. I assume there's plenty to occupy the mind for a few thousand years, but the infinity represented by the notion of immortality would require excruciating patience. Life is too short as it is now, true - I'd be quite content to have 2 or 3 times our current allotment.
As to your notion of sensory perception; we do that now with machines, and what you're suggesting factors down to something along the same lines. I know your thinking of something tied directly to the mind, instead of a readout on a display. Some such things would be interesting advantages, but consider the notion of the night vision camera mentioned a few posts ago. Seeing in either infrared or ultraviolet light would expand our sense of color, but we have never had that sense before. Our brains never developed with that ability, so we'd have to learn how to use the new information. What we think of 'vision' now would be altered considerably.
In our current use of machines to extend our vision, we have to compress the information. We can't perceive ultraviolet or infrared, so we have to represent that as shades of another color that we can see. This, in turn, would overlap with THAT color choice, causing us to loose the ability to differentiate between the 'new' spectra and the 'original' spectra we already understood. That, in turn, might cause us to compress the entire spectra, squeezing in the edges to make room for the new extremes, but again that reduces the subtle differences we see between the various colors. Our perception of red would have to shift toward the yellow, making reds look orange, while blues would have to shift toward greens, making blue look a bit teal, and the subtle shades we perceive between would be squeezed beyond our current limits, loosing just a little of the information we now see in the 'visible' spectrum. We'd see 'more' of what's there, sure - but less of what we used to - unless, and this is a big if, our brain could learn to see more than the 3 primary colors we perceive now. That's a tall order - lots of systems in the brain would have to be augmented and trained.
What I'm saying is that our brain's sensory faculties are designed to match it's sensory input systems, so it comes down to a matter of interpreting information. It seems everything is 'sensed' as pressures and patterns. How much pressure and where in an array of sensors defines both sight and sound, for example. The 'software' and 'hardware' of the brain interpret that raw information into what we think of as vision and audio - a much higher level concept, a magnified example of what it is to recognize letters but not words, as opposed to reading and comprehending ideas. That's what is actually more important that increasing sensory perception - increasing the mind's ability to interpret what we sense (and we can do that already).
My favorite Einstein quote is, "Imagination is more important than knowledge". It's inspiring. It almost sounds irresponsible, like a teenager making an excuse for avoiding homework. It was the mechanism by which he created new sciences. I think he's in the same subject area, too.
Around the universe? We have no real idea, and it's likely that the information about it can never reach us, at least in the conventional meaning. Around, however, might not be simply beyond the known 3 dimensional extent. Have you looked into the tesseract? Outside the universe could be dimensions, not distance. It's hard to say outside the realm of math, but then our brains weren't designed to make this easy to understand. It requires Einstein's recommended tool :)
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:45:56 >

# 45 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
I'm just suprised at many things at this moment.
As far as I'm concerned the universe can not go on for ever but that also means that there is extra space on the outside(this is what the big bang proves, if there was no space on the outside of the small universe and the big bang occurred nothing would change). Its like saying a programmer is designing a level but he can not make it different forever but he can add as much as he wants.
Do you think it is possible that in a few billion years we would move? We would have to understand all the concepts(almost) of the universe and create a mega dynamic ship to travel. Not to mention fuel. I think I saw a program(TV) that said that there is a vast amount of anti-matter at the center of our solar system.
Thanks.
# 46 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Surprise gives rise to fascination, which tells me you're engaged in the kind of thinking you're destined to study. If you can brave through the math, you're in the general direction of physics, medicine, astrophysics, engineering, perhaps philosophy. My own son is 6, so I can't tell where his directions of interest will take him (he shows significant interest in building things, but it will be a few years before I can explain atoms, photons and electronics). I hope he follows similar lines of intrigue, but I'm going to have to retire to have time :)
Do you think it is possible that in a few billion years we would move?
Move - as in out of the solar system...
Carl Sagan suggested it would take about 10,000 years, maybe less, to develop that kind of technology, if it's possible at all.
Modern technology, which most agree begins with Einstein (or is roughly attributed to the results of his theories) is barely 100 years or so old. Science, if you include some of the more primitive studies, isn't even 500 years old. Some forms of math, beyond mere arithmetic, aren't even 3,000 years old. Many parts of algebra aren't even 1,000 years old, and the calculus is less than 400.
It fascinates me to realize that a rudimentary steam engine, sufficient at least to illustrate the concept, was demonstrated a little over 2,000 years ago. It just didn't seem to strike anyone as important at the time. It was a very crude, simple example. Not at all like a piston driven steam engine from 200 years ago, but enough to demonstrate how fire could boil water to produce pressure and rotate something indefinitely. Considering it's age, if it HAD been recognized as significant, we might have had engines 1800 years ago, instead of 200 years ago. Just think about how fragile an idea can be, or how a fragile thought can give rise to such important developments.
Something happened to our value of ideas 500 years ago. I'm not exactly sure what, or who has examined this line of thinking - I'm going off on my own here. However, it's clear that everything from the design of musical instruments to weapons took a completely different direction at that time. We refer to this era as the renaissance. Leonardo Da Vinci is from that period, as is Galileo, Copernicus and just after that, Isaac Newton.
From then on, every idea that was generated was reconsidered, some were rejected, lost, and rediscovered, but on the average we valued new kinds of thinking in ways we never had before.
Then came Einstein, and the whole thing exploded.
Actually, it was already preparing to explode just before his time, from people like James Maxwell and Heinrich Hertz (there were lots of them), thinking and theorizing about the subject, but Einstein produced the essential spark of realization.
It was around that same time (give or take 30 years) that the inventions of the electric light, radio, electric motors, the vacuum tube (and basic electronics) and a huge range of engineering marvels were created.
From there we have the rather dark moment in which nuclear energy was realized. Mechanical engineering had already advanced from the stage of wooden clocks to automobiles, and we were still primitive compared to what we have today. The rate at which ideas are exchanged, scrutinized, proven (or dis-proven) increased exponentially. Unless something happens to impede the pace (and it doesn't yet appear so), I can see how Sagan proposed 10,000 years is sufficient to either develop a means of travel to other stars, or learn that it is beyond plausibility.
As to anti-matter at the center of the solar system - that would be the sun. It's just matter there. Anti-matter causes a violent explosion if it contacts 'normal' matter, so it's tough to find any around us. We can make it, but in limited quantities and we have to use it fairly soon.
I think zero point energy is likely more important to us. Despite being referenced in the cartoon 'The Incredibles', it's a real concept. It's based on the casimir effect. I think it's probably more practical than fusion power, but both are still beyond us.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:47:56 >

# 47 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
The only problem of galactic travel, is power source.
For the rest of the problems there are solutions, artifical gravity with magnetism, pressure suits that also help you to move in space, or training machines that simulate 1G.
For food and water, you can always build a farm/natural enviroment and recycle toilet droppings like in star trek, in your spaceship :D
# 48 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Now that I think about it why don't us Humans simply just get rid of the water that's piling up because of the ice caps? We could simply get rid of the water in large quantities and just simply send it into space.
How is it possible that molten lava stayed the way it is for such a long time?
Is there anything more stronger then titanium?
Why don't Humans make a VERY thick shell of titanium with a camera and send it through a black hole?
Thanks.
# 49 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Because water is very heavy, and u cant just send it into space, what if we need it one day.
What do you mean that molten lava stayed so long?
There are probably substances stronger than titanium, cobalt is strong in pressure(heat = pressure) resistance. Scientist are engineering new molecules, its basically like programming but than with on a molecular level. So im sure there is something stronger out there than titanium, but stronger in what?
nothing can escape a blackhole so how u think we are going to get thecamera back? It will just be a waste of resources, and also it will take hundreds of thousands of years before that camera will reach a black hole, and on the way it might be destroyed by radiation, stars, planets, asteroids or maybe even gas clouds.
# 50 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Despite the concern over coastal flooding, I think the rise of the ocean is among the lesser of the problems we face. We can loose coastal regions from erosion, too - though not ALL coastal area at once. While I'm not negating the implication, I think the problems with weather pattern changes, potential changes in the behavior of the Earth's crust (volcanic and tectonic activity), and the likely extinction of many species, giving rise to rather dramatic changes in the equilibrium of nature have more consequences to us.
Earth has been through changes like this before, and this one, while probably exacerbated by our activity, is going to work out like previous examples, in that eventually nature will establish a new equilibrium. It may be difficult for us to find out place in the new equilibrium, and we may experience catastrophes in the process.
By lava, if you're referring to the molten core of the Earth, magma, etc. stays molten because the Earth is constantly receiving heat energy from the sun, and our atmosphere (and the Earth itself) retain some of that heat energy. It also looses some - and if you think about it, it shouldn't be a mystery as to why the outer shell is cooler, and the inner core retains more heat. Global warming is, actually, about the temperature of the globe. I marvel at the fact most people think it's about the temperature of the air. It's the globe's increasing temperature we have to care about - indeed, more of the earth's minerals may become molten as the Earth's heat energy increases.
Titanium is the strongest metal, but it's only incrementally different in it's ability to withstand force than, say, steel. Various measurements apply; hardness, tensile strength, brittleness - these and many other factors work together (or against each other) to give the properties of materials we know. Diamond, which is essentially a carbon lattice, may be considered the hardest material (there was an 'artificial' substance or two that is considered harder, with long and unfamiliar names). Diamond is hard because the molecular bond of carbon is the strongest of all atoms.
I'm not all that current on the science your question is based on, and I think there's entire PhD's earned on these subjects. The molecular engineering Mitsukai mentioned is among them.
Your question about a titanium shelled camera brings up an interesting discussion by itself. Mitsukai's right, it would still be crushed. That's because the nature of the matter we know and love isn't anything like what's in a black hole. Even the electrons flowing through a wire attached directly to such a camera, if it could survive, would never be able to escape the black hole's gravity - nothing would come back to us out of that wire.
The point I want to bring up, though, is generally why titanium isn't strong enough. If you could see the atoms that comprise the matter in that camera, you'd notice that in the space between the nucleus of protons and the shell of electrons spinning around it is void, and the relative distance with respect to the size of the electrons is vast. Something like placing a soccer ball in your front yard, then driving a few miles down the road and dropping a marble on the roadside. The distance between the marble and the ball, relative to the size of both, is something like the scale of the atom.
That means most of what's there in the atom is empty space.
The form of the camera is based on the fact that the atoms of the titanium bond to each other, with plenty of empty space in there. The empty spaces are too small to be visible, but it's there.
Inside a black hole, however, matter is so compressed and at such high density that much of that empty space is squeeze away - the particles that make the atom are crushed together, and so is the structure of the matter that once comprised it. Part of this is fusion, but from what I understand, it goes beyond fusion. Electrons aren't going to fly around nuclei, individual distinctions of atoms and molecule are mashed together. The structure of that camera will cease to exist as separate components or even separate atoms. It will become part of the substance of the black hole.
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:52:07 >

# 51 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Do we even have proof that black holes exist?
Thanks.
# 52 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Despite the concern over coastal flooding, I think the rise of the ocean is among the lesser of the problems we face.
i disagree the oceans water flow slowing down is a major problem in weather conditions. read about global cooling on this subject. The next problem in weather conditions is the moon.
However i dont think global warming is a big issue, if poeple would be smart they would make a balance between SO2 and CO2 in the atmosphere, as SO2 blocks sun light, but we have to take in count of acid rain.
i came to this link: http://www.nasa.gov/lb/centers/langley/news/factsheets/Aerosols_prt.htm
read the last chapter.. its just scary. Why dont they cancel flight?
# 53 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Why don't they cancel flight?
We do so many things that aren't in our best long term interests it's staggering. The short version is money. Transportation opportunities unique to flight are simply too attractive for people to willingly give it up.
I don't think a sun blocking agent is in our best long term interest, either, and not just because of acid rain. All popular forms of chemical energy are basically solar energy, assuming the origin of petroleum is as it's said to be. When that runs out, if it hasn't come close to that already, the only chemical energy we're going to have available is that which we create from plant material. That turns the equation into how much energy per acre of land can we produce per year, vs how much do we consume. That is until we find some other safer source of energy. Because of this relationship between photosynthesis and energy, we need sunlight.
Proof of black holes is more than anecdotal, but not quite as good as proving the speed of light, or that the stove is hot, or water is wet :)
We do have direct observations of, as an example, the orbit of a star close to the center of our galaxy which exhibits a speed indicating a mass at the center of the galaxy which is of such a value that the density of that object must be exactly in the range of that predicted by the mathematical models regarding black holes.
In other observations, we've found Einstein rings. These were predicted by relativity. The idea is based on his proposal that gravity warps space, and even light would 'turn' according to the amount of the warp. Not necessarily by mass, but because what IS a straight line has been warped into a curve.
If the mass were great enough, and thus the warp curved enough, light would wrap around an object. There are 'amounts' to this balance of mass/warping that show light could be bent anywhere from 0 to 90, 180, 360 or more degrees. Yes, more - as in wrapping around more than once.
The result is an Einstein ring. Google for pictures, they're quite interesting. If, for example, light were wrapped around a black hole by 180 degrees, light coming toward the hole were end up returning toward the source. You're thinking, "but I thought black holes absorb everything including light". They do, but only that which falls into the event horizon. For black holes, the gravitational influence can be great enough that this 'wrapping' effect is outside the event horizon, so it doesn't swallow up THAT light.
There are other rotational results that end up wrapping light around the object a few times (who knows how many times), then flying out in basically the same direction, but at a different location, and 'spread out'. The result is a magnification of the image reaching the area. Einstein rings can act light a magnifying glass for objects on the other side of them. There isn't much in the universe that could be massive enough to do this but a black hole, and since we've seen now TWO predicted effects, the case is closing.
There are other observations. Black holes aren't always black (I think that's the title of one of the chapters in Hawkings "A brief history of time". Some, entirely dependent on size, if I understand correctly, radiate energy. The smaller the black hole, the greater its radiation, until, when it exists as a very tiny black hole, the 'math' says it releases an infinite amount of energy. Something is wrong there - but even Hawkings hasn't revealed just what, I don't think. There is something about the minimum size of a black hole we just don't know - or, possibly, it's a very rare occurrence, requiring certain conditions not present today, but when the conditions are met, perhaps the result is - a big bang? (Just guessing wildly at that point).
So, is that proof? It's enough to convince most of the skeptical scientists qualified to understand the material, and good enough for me to agree. I would put it this way, the evidence is clear enough at this point that anyone doubting they exist would have to provide some compelling theoretical material that is consistent with these observations with alternate explanations (also consistent with physics, etc.) to be taken seriously. So far, nothing strong enough to last more than a few minutes of debate.
This offers an answer:
http://www.wonderquest.com/black-holes-proof.htm
JVene at 2007-11-9 13:55:04 >

# 54 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Quit interesting.
From what you've said I would have thought the a black hole would have been white as it keeps the light going round. Does the light stay there forever?
Are Humans 100% dynamic? I mean how does the brain control what it/we do? Does it(in terms of programming) just use MASSIVE amounts of if, else if and else statements? Or is it actaully a 100% dynamic?
Is it possible for a Human to understand Binary? I think it is. If you were brought up reading binary every single say of your life since you were born you brain would theoratically adapt and understand.
Can we each consider are selves Humans? If you think about it, animals and plants have species and everyone in the same species looks the same(minding sex), but us Humans each look different and each have different characteristics.
Why is the brain made to not let you die but almost always kills you? By this I mean that the reason we get scared is because it affects our chances of living a good life and the brain feels threatened but say something like a piano was 100 ft above your head falling down and you saw it, you would(in most cases) freeze/paralyze and that would cause your demise but on the other hand if your brain was never scared to start with you would simply step to the side and pretend like nothing happened.
How does the brain "re-program" itself on a daily bases yet we don't even understand what's going on?
Why does the body care about the color of your eye? There is ALWAYS a reason for why you do something, even if you force you self to lift a finger it is because your brain saw even a small reason to do it.
Thanks.
# 55 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Ofcourse humans understand binary.. but to be able to read it as text, u need some training.
Human brain does not reprogram. it grows(learn), it dies(forget), it grows, it dies.. it grows etc.
Brain cells make connection to one in eachother and creates patterns.
You could say the patterns are the programs, the speech center and others are the internal hardware that send/recieve messages from the programs to the external hardware.
There are also chemical reactions in your brain, these are actually emotions, this is how drugs and alcohol influences your emotions and also does major damage to the rest of the brain cells.
They took brain cells from a rat, than they made a hardware interface to interact the brain with the computer. Than they ran a flight simulator, and u could see the brain cells learn how to fly, these loose brain cells(liquid) were making millions of connections and patterns. In the process you could see how the brain cells solidify slowly.
# 56 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
The brain is just one amazing thing!
How deep have we been able to underwater?
How to deep underwater animals have light in their heads(obviously due to adaption but how do they make it)?
I wonder how many new species there are down there. Possibly hundreds. Have we another technology to see that deep?
How do bacteria as deep as half a mile survive the pressure(and possibly heat from underwater volcanoes also poison from it)?
Thanks.
# 57 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
the heat and "poison" is actually a heat source for life deep underwater.
For organism that generate light, its a chemical reaction i believe, but why dont u just try google?
Bacteria are very resilient organisms they can live almost anywhere on earth.. Bacteria are able to shield themselves from cold and heat, probably pressure to, but i dont think pressure is really bothering them because they are so small..
http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Life_Hot_Spot_999.html
# 58 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
How do bacteria do what they do with just a nucleus as a brain?
# 59 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Similar to ants or other small creatures, they use instincts and what few little senses they have. Bacteria aren't intelligent in the sense that we know, such as sentient beings, but they live off of ingrained instincts. Like software, they do whats been programmed into them through evolution.
And have you ever heard of white holes? The antagonist of black holes? Some scientists think that if you could travel through a black hole, you would go through a tunnel known as a worm hole and end up coming out of a white hole in another dimension.
Speaking of things that float on water, heres something fun to think about. If you could get a pool big enough to put Saturn in, Saturn would float ;)
Oh, and something else. I cant remember where, but theres a lake or ocean somewhere that has so much salt dissolved in the water that you could literally lay ontop of the water.
JVene, I'm gonna make a novel out of your posts, lol.
# 60 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Oh, and something else. I cant remember where, but theres a lake or ocean somewhere that has so much salt dissolved in the water that you could literally lay ontop of the water.
The place you are talking of is the Dead Sea (and it isn't an ocean, it is actually a lake).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Dead_sea_newspaper.jpg/800px-Dead_sea_newspaper.jpg
It is also called as such because the amount of salt in the water permits no acquatic life forms such as fishes, for example.
# 61 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
And have you ever heard of white holes? The antagonist of black holes? Some scientists think that if you could travel through a black hole, you would go through a tunnel known as a worm hole and end up coming out of a white hole in another dimension.
poeple who come up with theories like this are a bit crazy and cant think logically. The proof that black holes might leak radiation says enough.
# 62 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Siddhartha,
Whats wrong with that dudes foot? It looks like the salt is kinda getting to him, lol. His other foot looks ok though :P
poeple who come up with theories like this are a bit crazy and cant think logically. The proof that black holes might leak radiation says enough.
But we can't disprove this idea either? Whats to say that they don't exist? That the very fabric of the known physics world is ripped apart in a black hole? We don't know but its fun to think about ;)
# 63 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
And have you ever heard of white holes? The antagonist of black holes? Some scientists think that if you could travel through a black hole, you would go through a tunnel known as a worm hole and end up coming out of a white hole in another dimension.
Then they are not serious scientists. This is only lot of imagination without real scientific evicences.
# 64 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Well we can't really say they are crazy, we need proof. I'm sure you would remember the time when they said that man would never go on the moon and that scientists are crazy, right? But in the end they did(of course I just heard the stuff from my dad).
Where does are sense of design come from?
Why does the brain work like two processors and not one?
Is there a mother black hole(think of it in a dimensional orientation)?
What happens if a black hole eats a black hole?
How are cramps formed?
Thanks.
# 65 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
What happens if a black hole eats a black hole?
It gets something known as "Stellar Indigestion", something similar to lactose intolerance but far more gassy. Where do you think nebula come from? Black holes fart them out... :thumb:
Hahaha, kidding. Thats a good question Im curious about myself. I would assume that it would simply getting sucked into infinite nothingness, or maybe a supernova would occur.
As for your question about the brain thinking like two different processors, its because the brain is divided into two halves. I know from personal experience that I can keep talking while I'm thinking about something totally different. Or I can set my hands to type on auto-pilot while I'm talking to someone else. But then again, I have ADD, so my attention span is somewhat warped that way, lol.
# 66 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
But then again, I have ADD, so my attention span is somewhat warped that way, lol.Nothing to worry about, it's merely a thread synchronization issue - easily solved. :)
Arjay at 2007-11-9 14:08:21 >

# 67 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
Nothing to worry about, it's merely a thread synchronization issue - easily solved. :)
The UI thread and the worker thread is not in sync. :D
# 68 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
What happens if a black hole eats a black hole?
Not that I'm certain, but I'm fairly sure it forms a more massive black hole. (Kindof anti-climactic, isn't it?).
Why does the brain work like two processors and not one?
I'm sure, as the other posts assumed, you're talking about the effect of thinking one thing while doing another. Some similar happens in typing, if you're fast and practiced. You hear a sentence spoken, and type 'behind' what's being said. You're remembering what's said while you're typing some words spoken earlier.
What struck me when I read your question, though, is that from what I've read about the brain, it works like billions of multiple processors, at least at the lowest level (each neuron functions independently in real time, in a massively parallel system).
RaleTheBlade's point that the brain is, in the largest sense, divided in two halves represents the parallelism of several subcomponents. I've often thought of it as a pair of twins, not so identical, joined face to face within the skull.
There are divisions, front to back, on each side. I think it's 3 or 4 general regions (each with a few specializations there). Progressively, it seems, each of these regions are grouped into smaller hierarchies, until, after several successions, you reach the individual neurons.
I think that means, in a sense, the degree of parallelism depends on what functions are active.
One of the things that makes AI so difficult is that most of the work requires parallel actions on scales so much more massive that the hardware we have to implement them, that simulating a brain is way beyond current state of the art, with one big exception.
Not long ago, IBM completed a stage of an experiment in what they called the simulation of a mouse brain. It was capable of about 30%, if I read correctly, of a mouse brain's functionality, but probably not quite real time. You'll find a few light articles on it through a google search. This means we're not yet 5% of a human brain, but that's very close, considering.
A lot depends, of course, on the completeness of their algorithm's simulation of neurons. We don't really know what software is in a neuron, we just think we might. If they are close to the neuron's facility, and this experiment was reasonably valid, a mere $50 billion or so could purchase the hardware to create the artificial equivalent of an infant brain, but it would probably run, at best, around 1/100th the speed of the 'real' thing, or even slower.
That should give you some hint as to the value of your own, though as most things in technology go, the price is dropping rapidly :)
JVene at 2007-11-9 14:10:25 >

# 69 Re: ElectroMagnetic Radiation -
lol (to both RaleTheBlade and JVene).
A lot depends, of course, on the completeness of their algorithm's simulation of neurons. We don't really know what software is in a neuron, we just think we might. If they are close to the neuron's facility, and this experiment was reasonably valid, a mere $50 billion or so could purchase the hardware to create the artificial equivalent of an infant brain, but it would probably run, at best, around 1/100th the speed of the 'real' thing, or even slower.
If you think about it every single time they go through a test they make a Human(essence) and at some point kill it.
I know from personal experience that I can keep talking while I'm thinking about something totally different. Or I can set my hands to type on auto-pilot while I'm talking to someone else. But then again, I have ADD, so my attention span is somewhat warped that way, lol.
You make it sound like a good thing :) Is it a good thing? Im' confused :p
Thanks.
